I say that if this guy is happy with the JWs, let him stay with it. Often destroying one's faith can end with depression and cynicism, so unless you have something better to replace it with, let him stay where well enough's alone. You certainly don't want him backsliding into what he was. That said, he still sounds dangerous. I watch enough of the ID Channel that I'm amazed how casually people kill and maime. Sounds like he's a good guy to avoid.
Cold Steel
JoinedPosts by Cold Steel
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27
Are some better off not knowing the truth of the truth?
by EndofMysteries ini hate my situation.
a very close relative is remarried to a man who before becoming a jw was a shady character.
he has said if he wasn't a jw, he'd have guns and stuff, always worried about things.
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17
Going Beyond What Is Written In The Bible
by God_Delusion inhi guys & gals!.
the watchtower society have once again ignored the tent makers wise words to not go beyond what is written in the bible.. how many times has the watchtower society gone beyond what is written in the bible?.
http://www.jehovahswitnessblog.com/bible/do-not-go-beyond-the-things-that-are-written/.
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Cold Steel
The only thing written by God directly are the 10 Commandments. Everything else was written by men.
You’re entitled to your opinion, but there’s much evidence to the contrary. The Bible is full of incredible prophecies and the Law of Moses, when understood, is wonderfully profound in its compassion and justice. It also points the way to Christ in its doctrine of sacrifice. The sacrifice of a lamb without blemish is symbolic of the sacrifice of the lamb of God. And when the people became wicked and rebelled, God sent poisonous serpents to ravage them. But when Moses petitioned the Lord, the Lord told him to place serpents on staffs and take them throughout the camps. All the people had to do is look upon the graven serpents and they were healed. This was clearly a type and token of Christ upon the cross.
Also, if one examines passages such as Isaiah 52 (verses 12-14) and 53, who but God could have spoken it? Then, in Ezekiel 38-39, God specifically addresses “the Beast of Revelation” who will come down against Israel in the latter days: “Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord God; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it? And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army: and thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.” The Lord then tells how He will turn back Gog and put pruning hooks into his mouth and destroy him and his army, leaving but a sixth part remaining. He then says, “And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them. So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day and forward.”
The two chapters describe the battle of Armageddon in detail. The scripture is recorded not only as a prophecy, but as a warning to the man who will be the Beast—the antichrist who will gather many nations together to destroy Jerusalem.
Jesus prophesied against Jerusalem in His day and foretold its destruction by the Romans. Because of the revelations received subsequently by the apostles, the Christians left the city before the destruction resulting in zero loss of Christians, who had gathered to others cities such as Pella. Not only did prophets talk about the destruction of Jerusalem, they also foretold its gathering (see Isaiah 11). This began to be fulfilled in the late 1800s and culminated in the creation of the state of Israel in 1947.
The prophecies of Daniel were so detailed that it’s impossible to think that they were the works of men, so to think that only the ten commandments were of God is to be a bit narrow. In fact, the Bible is full of prophecies that have come to pass or which are awaiting fulfillment.
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Going Beyond What Is Written In The Bible
by God_Delusion inhi guys & gals!.
the watchtower society have once again ignored the tent makers wise words to not go beyond what is written in the bible.. how many times has the watchtower society gone beyond what is written in the bible?.
http://www.jehovahswitnessblog.com/bible/do-not-go-beyond-the-things-that-are-written/.
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Cold Steel
One of the biggest misconceptions about the Bible is that it's a handbook. It's not, by any means. There are scores of questions the Bible doesn't answer, to wit:
- What is the overall structural organization of the church?
- What officers should there be in the church? Apostles, bishops, deacons, priests, evangalists and so forth. What are their duties? How are they chosen?
- Once selected, who can ordain people to these offices? How do they do it and by what authority?
- Amos 3:7 states that the Lord will do NOTHING save He reveal it to His servants the prophets. Where is there in the scriptures a prophecy that states the Lord will set up His Kingdom in the latter days and choose a governing body to head it? (Daniel 2 states the Lord will establish His Kingdom in the days of the fractured toes of the figure seen in the dream, but Daniel states that it would roll forth as a stone without hands, meaning it will not be established by men, but by God.) So how does this point the way to the governing board?
- How is baptism to be performed, and by what authority? And who can administer the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Spirit?
- Jesus came to teach the apostles for 40 days following His resurrection. What did He teach them during that time that He had not taught them many times before. And why were these teachings secret?
- Who selects the governing board members, and how much authority does the board have? Is their authority apostolic in nature?
- Does the GB receive revelation from Jehovah? Some say the board only receives "inspiration" from On High, but isn't inspiration revelation? In many revelations given anciently, the Lord's will was made known by the Holy Spirit, who would speak to them in their hearts. So the board either receives revelation or it doesn't.
- How often should the sacrament of emblems be administered and who is authorized to bless them?
- How should missionary work be conducted? Is it enough to hand someone some literature and be on their way? Or should they try to get in and teach the people.
These are only a few of the questions the Bible doesn't answer, which if it were a handbook, it should. The Bible also does not confer authority. If it did, every person who wanted to establish a church through the Internet could. For only a few dollars you can get a ministerial certificate right through any one of a dozen or so places on the Internet.
At any rate, I know of no place in the scriptures that designate 1914 as a prophetic date. Daniel, in Chapter 2, made a very complicated historical prophecy that came to pass literally. And in Chapter 9, he correctly prophecies the exact timeline of the Savior's ministry in the famous "seventy week" prophecy. And Isaiah wrote in Chapter 53 a very detailed prophecy about Christ that no one can miss.
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Going Beyond What Is Written In The Bible
by God_Delusion inhi guys & gals!.
the watchtower society have once again ignored the tent makers wise words to not go beyond what is written in the bible.. how many times has the watchtower society gone beyond what is written in the bible?.
http://www.jehovahswitnessblog.com/bible/do-not-go-beyond-the-things-that-are-written/.
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Cold Steel
One of the things that the ancient Old Testament peoples had with the New Testament saints is that both believed in an open canon of scripture. In fact, there is nothing in the Bible that closes the canon of scripture. Yes, John warns adding to the prophecies written in his book (Revelation 22:18), but it was just that -- his book, and he was warning not to add to the prophecies in his particular book. Mose wrote similarly when he wrote Deuteronomy 4:2: "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you." Yet many prophets added to those words and we accept them as binding on us today.
During the battle of Armageddon, God will raise up two prophets who will use divine power to thwart the Beast and his armies. John writes in Chapter 11: " And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will."
While they are engaged in their earthly missions, do you not think they will write concerning their ministries just as the ancient prophets did? And will their writings not be scripture, just as the writings of the early prophets became scripture? These two prophets will be killed by the Beast, but three and a half days later they will be miraculously resurrected. Certainly, like the prophets of old, these two prophets will write, and it's entirely likely that we will have their words during the Millennium. During the first century, Paul and other apostles frequently quoted from the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, yet we do not have that writing in our canon. Why? Because many scholars thought there were too many Christian interpolations. But with the discovery of new documents in the Dead Sea Scrolls and Nag Hammadi writings (and others), there are a number of ancient writings that pre-date Christianity, yet sound remarkably Christian. We have the Epistle of Barnabus, which, among other things, strongly condemns abortion. Again, why was it left out? The first century Christians certainly considered it a part of their canon.
The Lord can add to the canon of scripture whenever He wishes. Protestant scholar Lee M. McDonald writes: “On what biblical or historical grounds has the inspiration of God been limited to the written documents that the church now calls its Bible? … If the Spirit inspired only the written documents of the first century, does that mean that the same Spirit does not speak today in the church about matters that are of significant concern?” (The Formation of the Christian Biblical Canon, rev. ed. (1995), 255–56)
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Who are Anointed according to the Bible?
by The Searcher inacording to the bible, who are "anointed" in god's eyes?.
the term 'anointed' occurs in the greek scriptures.
in all but one of the verses, they refer to jesus.
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Cold Steel
Anointing was a common practice in both the Old Testament and the New. Kings were anointed with olive oil that had been consecrated by the priests. When Mary anointed Jesus' feet with the expensive ointment, Jesus accepted it as a holy recognition of his role as the Redeemer of mankind. The 144,000 high priests will be anointed from among the tribes of Israel.
Most scholars don't hold to the idea that the number is a literal number. Twelve was a number signifying completeness. Twelve thousand from each tribe need not be taken literally. But what will these 144,000 do? We don't know as it was not recorded in the scriptures. Since the Governing Body doesn't actually claim revelation from God, the only thing it can do is surmise.
One thing they are NOT is a heavenly class of spirits. What absurdity drove Russell to this extreme conclusion is not clear, but all men will be resurrected physically. In other words, they will take up their bodies again just as Christ did. As a resurrected being, you will not have blood (the corrupting agent in man), but will have spirit. Thus, even though Jesus was physically resurrected, He could go through walls and traverse distances in fractions of a second. But He was a spirit before He came to the earth, and when He took up His body, it was a perfected physical body capable of eating and touching. The notion that spirits can generate physical bodies is, to me, ridiculous. People look at Genesis 6 and think the angels became flesh. Actually, this is more myth. The sons of God were God's people, and the daughters of men were the heathen. For years Satan had used this method to pollute God's people, and he was still using it when Balaam came along in the days of Moses. The only rebellion of angels happened before the earth was ready for habitation, and a third of the heavenly host were led away by the Adversary.
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Cold Steel
In John 1:1 why didn't Jesus just say "and the Word was an angel"????
Jehovah’s Witnesses have never understood the identity of Jesus. In fact, Jesus, in his premortal state, was known as…are you ready for this? He was known as Jehovah. There are clues everywhere in both the Old and New Testaments.
When Adam and Eve fell, the Father could no longer have intercourse with the human family. There had to be a mediator, and that mediator was Jehovah. In the meridian of time, Jesus came and fulfilled His role as redeemer. Then He ascended to His Father, and our Father. He will rule throughout the Millennium and at the end, after He has finally defeated Satan and his angels, He will offer the world, glorified and redeemed, back to the Father and His commission will be fulfilled.
The Father’s only communication with man was to bear witness of the Son. But because of man’s sin, man could no longer communicate with the Father except by going through the Son. At some future point, according to Daniel, Jesus will stand before the Ancient of Days and receive supreme power and authority. This did not happen in 1914, by the way. In the Old Testament, and the New as well, Jehovah will be the ultimate judge of mankind. But John states that “the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son.” (See John 5:22) This also explains why Jesus has the same titles as Jehovah, being King of Kings and Lord of Lords; also, the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. A careful reading of Revelation also clearly reveals that Jesus and Jehovah are one and the same.
The JWs believe that Jehovah is the Father and that Jesus is Michael. But this is an assumption and is an error. Psalm 110:1-2 states: “ The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. ” The question becomes, who is David’s Lord? Since he was the king, the answer is Jehovah. In essence, the Father is speaking to the Son, and the Son is Jehovah, David’s Lord.
The Son’s role as mediator did not originate during the New Testament, but went back to the Beginning. As soon as Adam partook of the forbidden fruit, that’s when the need for a Mediator came to pass. Thus, when Moses spoke to God face to face, and when the 70 elders of Israel and others saw Jehovah on Mount Sinai, they were seeing the premortal Jesus—the God of Israel.
So it’s a bitter pill for some JWs, and most of them just don’t believe it. That’s fine by me, as they can believe as they wish. The main point is John 1:1, where Jesus is the Word, and the Word was God. The Father also is God, and when Stephen sees Jesus on the right hand of “God,” that God was the Father. And it’s clear that Jesus deferred to the Father, but the fact is, both of them were Gods.
But how can both be Gods when Isaiah says there is only one God, and that God said He knew of no others? Because the oneness of God is a oneness in purpose. We know this because Jesus, when praying, said, “…that they [the apostles] may be ONE, even as WE are ONE.” In other words, the apostles weren’t to be physically one, but one in purpose. And Jesus was drawing an analogy. He was saying to the Father, “In the same sense that WE are ONE, I pray that these, mine apostles, will be ONE.” It couldn’t be clearer. There’s no reason to choke on the “trinity” doctrine or scratch one’s head trying to figure out how Jesus and the Father can both be ONE. The analogy says it all.
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My first convention in 20+ years - observations
by jws inwell, got this brochure inviting me to a district convention to the public talk.
oddly, the time for the public talk was nowhere on the invite, instead they had a location and the start/end times for all 3 days.
unusual.
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Cold Steel
Oh, and by the way, this guy isn't even baptized (maybe the beard clued us into that).
Is it true that if you are baptized that you can't grow a beard? Who made that rule? I remember seeing JW publications that showed Jesus as clean shaven. Now he's got a beard in the latest pubs. What happens if you have a beard and refuse to shave it? In the conversion process, when is the man told this? And what if someone has tattoos? Do they have to be removed?
Are you guys allowed to drink wine?
What other unscriptural rules do you have to abide by?
Regarding race, most of the people who drop by now are black. They used to be predominantly white. What happens now is that two cars full of people show up on a weekend dressed like they're going to a wedding. They knock on the door, but like I said, they don't seem to want to come in. They usually stuff a Watchtower and an Awake! into my hand, then they shove off.
BTW, do they have to pay for printed materials or does the church pick that up? Also, do they still give out Bibles? They used to give out green Bibles and the translations were terrible. The ink and paper had a distinctive smell that was distracting in that it never went completely away.
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My son and Elder janitor
by jam inmy son recently out of the coast guard, in training for.
supervisor,(a program set up by business companies for.
returning veterans).
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Cold Steel
Interesting. I hope you'll finish your story. From a scriptural standpoint I suppose the elders are chosen in some way. Isn't there an overseer in each Kingdom Hall? That would be the equivalent of a bishop in the ancient church, right? Why doesn’t the JW church have bishops, priests, deacons and other officers that existed in the ancient church?
As for elders, is this an office one can aspire to? And how political is the selection of elders? Do some people become angry that they weren’t chosen and someone else was? And once a person becomes an elder, do they remain an elder? When someone is chosen to be an elder, do they have any kind of a ceremony like an ordination?
This janitor fellow—he is presently an elder despite his drinking problem?
As for proselyting, I had a guard in my organization (U.S. Navy) who tried to convert me to Islam. He gave me a very nice hardback embossed copy of the Quran. And there have been a number of evangelical Christians who have made pitches to me, as well as a couple of Seventh Day Adventists. Seeing that I worked for the Navy most of my career, I never came upon any Jehovah’s Witnesses, but they come by the door every now and again. I find it interesting that they no longer seem to want to come in. Back in the 70s you almost had to force their feet out of the door. In other words, I’ve seen a lot of changes in the church since then. I get the feeling that they’re just trying to meet some sort of statistical obligations; otherwise, why wouldn’t they try to come in? Is that a change that came down from the GB?
Again, any info on elders would be appreciated as I find it very interesting. Specifically, I’d like to know what kind of power they wield and how they get appointed/ordained.
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My son and Elder janitor
by jam inmy son recently out of the coast guard, in training for.
supervisor,(a program set up by business companies for.
returning veterans).
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Cold Steel
I'm sorry I ruffled so many feathers. Please accept my apology.
Now I'm not a JW, so could someone explain to me why elders are so special? Are they people to be deferred to?
When I took the Bible study, I didn't want to reveal my own religious beliefs. I just sat there and let them ask me questions. They kept asking me what my religious beliefs were, which church I belonged to, etc., and I replied that I didn't want to reveal it because then the discussion would center around those beliefs instead of their beliefs. Well, they kept at it and I finally told them -- and guess what? The next time they came, they brought an elder with them who was billed as being an expert in my religion. I saw the two guys who originally came act with great deference, but I thought it might be because of his knowledge of the Bible, which was much greater than the two other guys.
So please tell me about elders. What do you have to do to become one? Does it require ordination and, if so, who does the ordination?
I obviously don't understand the pecking order. Do the elders themselves demand a certain respect, or is it just granted them?
Thanks!
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The Resurrection - Gender-less Humans or Spirit Beings?
by Badfish in"in the resurrection neither do men marry nor are women given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven.
" (mathew 22:30).
also, what about their offspring?
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Cold Steel
This question is #2 on my list of reasons why I left the damned cult. [#1 being, as most on-board know by now, Exodus 19: 16-19 which clearly describes a volcanic eruption, and just as clearly shows that neither the Israelites NOR THEIR GOD knew what the heck it was...]
There are many good reasons for leaving the Jehovah’s Witnesses, but your point in Exodus is not valid. Although controversy exists, in my view the most valid candidate for Sinai is Jebal al-Lawz, in Saudi Arabia; however, none of the candidates I know of is a volcano. Certainly, if Mount Sinai was a volcano, it would have been extremely foolhardy of Moses to have ascended the mount. The Exodus account states: “And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount. And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice. And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the Lord called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.”
The very gases that propel magma to the surface also expel oxygen, extinguishing lit fires in the process. Moses and anyone else foolhardy enough to go up to the top of an active volcano would certainly suffocate. Verse 21 states: “ And the Lord said unto Moses, Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the Lord to gaze, and many of them perish. ” Thus there was a danger, as expressed by the Lord, but Moses went to the top of the mountain for many days and conversed with the Lord “face to face.” (See Exodus 33.) Later, seventy elders of Israel, along with Aaron and Joshua, were permitted to climb partly up the mount and there they saw the Lord (Chapter 24). One commentator spoke of the uniqueness of this story: “The God who cannot be seen, is seen, not only by Moses, along with Joshua, his servant, but by Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, the priests, and also by seventy of the elders of Israel. The description of God is one that we would not have expected to find in the Old Testament. In addition to seeing God, the nobles of the nation Israel also sat and ate a meal in His presence. If nothing else would motivate us to study this text, our curiosity could inspire us.” These witnesses also were able to confirm that which Moses had told them. In fact, Moses wanted the entire encampment to see the Lord, but the people were frightened and refused, preferring to defer to Moses.
Yes, there are contradictions in the Bible and I’ve never bought into the doctrine that no man has seen God, as the scriptures clearly said that God spoke to Moses “face to face” (as mentioned above).
Pertaining to the resurrection, the scriptures made it clear that all men will be resurrected with the same resurrection that Jesus had. This is a resurrection of the physical body, and not a hair will be lost. It will not be a physical body of flesh and blood, but of flesh and spirit. Blood is the life, but it’s also the corruption. There will not be dual resurrections of spirit for some and bodies for others. All will receive their bodies just as they laid them down. After that, they will be able to appear as they wish. Regarding sexual function, nothing is recorded in the scriptures. Certainly, though, men and women will retain their gender. Adam and Eve were married while they were still immortal, and it’s clear that there will be no marriage “in the resurrection.” Whether this means they must be joined before their resurrection is unclear, but it makes little sense that men and women will be resurrected with all their parts intact, but inoperable. Still, it remains to be seen. People can be physical and spiritual at the same time. Jesus appeared with His body, and He was able to walk through walls and transport Himself via great distances. What JWs don’t realize is that the resurrection is the permanent joining of the body and the spirit. They mistakenly believe that people “sleep” at death and point to that tired passage in Ecclesiastes, which is a philosophical book, not an eschatological one. There’s no doubt that the early Christians not only believed men had spirits, but some first century Christian writers also believed we existed before we came to this earth. Many people who have had near death experiences relate seeing people they knew before they were born. Anyway, all men (male and female) will be resurrected the same. There are no “heavenly” and “earthly” classes.